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	<title>Comments for Cogito, ergo ludo.</title>
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	<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Roleplaying and the philosophy (mathematics, same thing) of it.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:15:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 2009 &#8211; lecture notes by Introvertti Ropeconissa &#171; Melkein matemaatikko</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/ropecon-2009-lecture-notes/#comment-1618</link>
		<dc:creator>Introvertti Ropeconissa &#171; Melkein matemaatikko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=543#comment-1618</guid>
		<description>[...] coniraportteja laitan toisen blogin puolelle (englanniksi); aloitin jo roolipeliteoriaa koskevista luentomuistiinpanoista. Siitä löytyy myös linkkejä muiden ihmisten [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] coniraportteja laitan toisen blogin puolelle (englanniksi); aloitin jo roolipeliteoriaa koskevista luentomuistiinpanoista. Siitä löytyy myös linkkejä muiden ihmisten [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Burning sandbox by Burning death frost doom &#171; Cogito, ergo ludo.</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/burning-sandbox/#comment-1592</link>
		<dc:creator>Burning death frost doom &#171; Cogito, ergo ludo.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 09:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1592</guid>
		<description>[...] will try to organise more of these sessions, as this I count as success, even though few, if any, of the players had played together before [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] will try to organise more of these sessions, as this I count as success, even though few, if any, of the players had played together before [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on D&amp;D 4e and social conflicts? by Tommi</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/dd-4e-and-social-conflicts/#comment-1586</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=572#comment-1586</guid>
		<description>Thank you for information; it is appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for information; it is appreciated.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D&amp;D 4e and social conflicts? by Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/dd-4e-and-social-conflicts/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=572#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>There is no social conflict system outside of skill challenges.  Typically, a complex social situation would be handled by a skill challenge or group of skill challenges with key skills being things like Diplomacy, Bluff, and Insight.

I&#039;d consider it fair use to summarize one of the social skill challenges presented in the DMG; if you consider it illegal, feel free to ignore or remove this part of my comment.

Interrogation (Complexity 1 challenge; 4 successes before 3 failures)
Primary skills:
Bluff (moderate DCs): used to trick a prisoner into revealing something.  Failing at Bluff eliminates its use for the rest of the challenge and increases other DCs to hard.
Diplomacy (moderate DCs): used to bargain with the NPC.  If you earn 3 or more successes at this, you must hold up your end of the bargain (the book is unclear how this is enforced).
Intimidate (moderate DCs): used to threaten the NPC.  Failing at Intimidate eliminates its use for the rest of the challenge and increases other DCs to hard.

Success at this challenge would mean that the prisoner provides the desired information; failure would indicate false information or silence.

Wizards has released a free preview of an interesting social skill challenge from the DMG2, no Insider subscription required:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090831

Two interesting social skill challenges online:
http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/11/skill-challenges-3-demon-dialogue/
http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/02/skill-challenge-information-gamble/

And a long list of skill challenges, many of them social:
http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/

All this is with the caveat that I have not yet gotten a grasp on skill challenges and how they are best used... or even if they are useful.  They certainly seem useful, especially if you tend toward several connected low-complexity skill challenges, but I have yet to be satisfied with a skill challenge I&#039;ve actually run in-game.

The most important thing that I&#039;ve found about skill challenges is that the mechanics must take a back seat to the roleplaying.  Skill challenges do not take the place of roleplayed encounters; they provide a way to keep score mechanically.  Essentially, the GM proceeds with the interaction as if it was being roleplayed normally, and uses the skill challenge rules to decide when the conflict has reached its conclusion and what conclusion has been reached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no social conflict system outside of skill challenges.  Typically, a complex social situation would be handled by a skill challenge or group of skill challenges with key skills being things like Diplomacy, Bluff, and Insight.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d consider it fair use to summarize one of the social skill challenges presented in the DMG; if you consider it illegal, feel free to ignore or remove this part of my comment.</p>
<p>Interrogation (Complexity 1 challenge; 4 successes before 3 failures)<br />
Primary skills:<br />
Bluff (moderate DCs): used to trick a prisoner into revealing something.  Failing at Bluff eliminates its use for the rest of the challenge and increases other DCs to hard.<br />
Diplomacy (moderate DCs): used to bargain with the NPC.  If you earn 3 or more successes at this, you must hold up your end of the bargain (the book is unclear how this is enforced).<br />
Intimidate (moderate DCs): used to threaten the NPC.  Failing at Intimidate eliminates its use for the rest of the challenge and increases other DCs to hard.</p>
<p>Success at this challenge would mean that the prisoner provides the desired information; failure would indicate false information or silence.</p>
<p>Wizards has released a free preview of an interesting social skill challenge from the DMG2, no Insider subscription required:<br />
<a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090831" rel="nofollow">http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090831</a></p>
<p>Two interesting social skill challenges online:<br />
<a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/11/skill-challenges-3-demon-dialogue/" rel="nofollow">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/11/skill-challenges-3-demon-dialogue/</a><br />
<a href="http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/02/skill-challenge-information-gamble/" rel="nofollow">http://dungeonsmaster.com/2009/02/skill-challenge-information-gamble/</a></p>
<p>And a long list of skill challenges, many of them social:<br />
<a href="http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/" rel="nofollow">http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/</a></p>
<p>All this is with the caveat that I have not yet gotten a grasp on skill challenges and how they are best used&#8230; or even if they are useful.  They certainly seem useful, especially if you tend toward several connected low-complexity skill challenges, but I have yet to be satisfied with a skill challenge I&#8217;ve actually run in-game.</p>
<p>The most important thing that I&#8217;ve found about skill challenges is that the mechanics must take a back seat to the roleplaying.  Skill challenges do not take the place of roleplayed encounters; they provide a way to keep score mechanically.  Essentially, the GM proceeds with the interaction as if it was being roleplayed normally, and uses the skill challenge rules to decide when the conflict has reached its conclusion and what conclusion has been reached.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D&amp;D 4e and social conflicts? by DeadGod</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/dd-4e-and-social-conflicts/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>DeadGod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=572#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>I think they were referring to skill challenges back in the &quot;preview days.&quot;

This is a spectacular discussion of skill challenges (both social and non):  http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/

I&#039;m going to toot my own horn here and offer up something from my blog.  We banged out (but never tested) a system that treats social conflict like combat.  It is in two posts:

http://mediocretales.com/?p=400
http://mediocretales.com/?p=433</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think they were referring to skill challenges back in the &#8220;preview days.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a spectacular discussion of skill challenges (both social and non):  <a href="http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/" rel="nofollow">http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to toot my own horn here and offer up something from my blog.  We banged out (but never tested) a system that treats social conflict like combat.  It is in two posts:</p>
<p><a href="http://mediocretales.com/?p=400" rel="nofollow">http://mediocretales.com/?p=400</a><br />
<a href="http://mediocretales.com/?p=433" rel="nofollow">http://mediocretales.com/?p=433</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 09 &#8211; jää hiljaisuus by Tommi</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ropecon-09-jaa-hiljaisuus/#comment-1532</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 08:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=550#comment-1532</guid>
		<description>I did not note it, as the scenario clearly assumed that it was not known. Certainly it would have been a very different experience where the death known to be certain.

I should note that I gave the scenario 4 out of 10, as we were required to rate them. In any situation but the convention, I would certainly have let a plausible idea save the characters, but even then, it would have been awfully challenging to come up with such an idea, however, due to the situation the scenario creates.

So; I don&#039;t think it is necessary to tell that everyone is going to die, but I do think it would be generally a smart thing to communicate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not note it, as the scenario clearly assumed that it was not known. Certainly it would have been a very different experience where the death known to be certain.</p>
<p>I should note that I gave the scenario 4 out of 10, as we were required to rate them. In any situation but the convention, I would certainly have let a plausible idea save the characters, but even then, it would have been awfully challenging to come up with such an idea, however, due to the situation the scenario creates.</p>
<p>So; I don&#8217;t think it is necessary to tell that everyone is going to die, but I do think it would be generally a smart thing to communicate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 09 &#8211; jää hiljaisuus by the_blunderbuss</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ropecon-09-jaa-hiljaisuus/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator>the_blunderbuss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=550#comment-1529</guid>
		<description>Actually, if the ending of the scenario is death (in whatever form... not that form is not relevant) it should be noted to the players beforehand. 

I find no real problem in an scenario where you have elements that are impossible to influence, as long as they&#039;re made clear to me. Basically, there are certain established assumptions about what role-playing is and what to expect that are different for everyone.  To avoid unnecessary frustration, it should be made very clear that those expectations do not hold water.

Granted, it is not possible to shield oneself (and the group) from every possible expectation. I would say, however, that the idea that the characters have some saying on the fact that their characters live or die at the end of the story... is pretty widespread.

Fred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, if the ending of the scenario is death (in whatever form&#8230; not that form is not relevant) it should be noted to the players beforehand. </p>
<p>I find no real problem in an scenario where you have elements that are impossible to influence, as long as they&#8217;re made clear to me. Basically, there are certain established assumptions about what role-playing is and what to expect that are different for everyone.  To avoid unnecessary frustration, it should be made very clear that those expectations do not hold water.</p>
<p>Granted, it is not possible to shield oneself (and the group) from every possible expectation. I would say, however, that the idea that the characters have some saying on the fact that their characters live or die at the end of the story&#8230; is pretty widespread.</p>
<p>Fred.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 09 &#8211; jää hiljaisuus by Callan</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ropecon-09-jaa-hiljaisuus/#comment-1501</link>
		<dc:creator>Callan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=550#comment-1501</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s possible for someone to say play in your pathfinder example is &#039;meaningful&#039;, as well. Ultimately the question of whether it&#039;s good enough for you is a question for you - convincing me that it was meaningful doesn&#039;t do anything in terms of whether it was or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s possible for someone to say play in your pathfinder example is &#8216;meaningful&#8217;, as well. Ultimately the question of whether it&#8217;s good enough for you is a question for you &#8211; convincing me that it was meaningful doesn&#8217;t do anything in terms of whether it was or not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 09 &#8211; jää hiljaisuus by Tommi</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ropecon-09-jaa-hiljaisuus/#comment-1493</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 08:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=550#comment-1493</guid>
		<description>In the play itself there is much meaningful activity for the players; namely, the conflicts between their characters. The ending is very small part of the play itself. The play is meaningful.

Is feel something that only happens after playing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the play itself there is much meaningful activity for the players; namely, the conflicts between their characters. The ending is very small part of the play itself. The play is meaningful.</p>
<p>Is feel something that only happens after playing?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ropecon 09 &#8211; jää hiljaisuus by Callan</title>
		<link>http://thanuir.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ropecon-09-jaa-hiljaisuus/#comment-1492</link>
		<dc:creator>Callan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thanuir.wordpress.com/?p=550#comment-1492</guid>
		<description>&quot;Yes. The author made a design that everyone dies and it has an effect on the feel of the scenario. Is that not the point of scenario design?&quot;

You can already get a &#039;feel&#039; from TV programs. The author seems to have deteremined about 90 to 95% of the feel with this, while the players add a little colour at around 5%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yes. The author made a design that everyone dies and it has an effect on the feel of the scenario. Is that not the point of scenario design?&#8221;</p>
<p>You can already get a &#8216;feel&#8217; from TV programs. The author seems to have deteremined about 90 to 95% of the feel with this, while the players add a little colour at around 5%.</p>
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